Agenda item

3.

Corporate Health and Safety Team Update

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Mr Austin referred to the figures in the table at paragraph 5.2 in the report. He said that was a variation of -9% over the year on a rolling basis and would continue to be kept under review through directorate discussions and at the corporate Health and Safety Board. There were no particular concerns at the last board meeting but officers continue to ensure that under reporting is monitored and that officers are aware of any H and S incidents.

Mr Austin said that two issues were considered with regard to non-employee matters; schools and community services buildings. Mr Rizzo was in attendance and would discuss how community leisure centres and library contracts are managed and those health and safety risks. There was also discussion about management at non-Lewisham schools and concerns that unions have about staffing levels where T A’s, who are not qualified teachers, are teaching classes  CYP officers were present and will address this issue.

Councillor Kelleher said that she had raised concerns, at the last meeting of this Committee, regarding how officers can ensure that there is a good relationship between Lewisham and academised schools and how H & S issues could be reported to Lewisham. Mr Austin said that Health and Safety is the responsibility of the employer and Lewisham cannot intervene unless there is an on-going relationship with the school and Lewisham owns the building for example. All school buildings were transferred to academies in Lewisham so there is no direct connection. Monitoring can be done informally through the schools network or for more important issues, Lewisham could review H and S issues referred to the Health and Safety Executive by academies.

Mr Cummins found this frustrating because he has been a member of CYP H & S for four years. During this time the responses from schools has changed and he is finding it increasingly difficult to obtain information. He declared an interest as a parent of a child who was, until recently, at an academy school in the borough. He wanted to know who was taking responsibility for children’s welfare and their health and safety whilst they are at school and questioned accountability within the context of academy schools..

Mr Cummins said that he had met with Mr Henaughan to discuss the issue of Health and Safety in schools and he has undertaken to do certain tasks and he said that it will be interesting to discover the outcomes of these tasks. Councillor Best said that her understanding is that governors are responsible for schools. Ms Der Man acknowledged what had been said.  She suggested that particular concerns raised regarding specific schools may only be merely noted here given the limited terms of reference of this committee; but a note of this may also be forwarded across to the schools concerned and the appropriate Executive Director too for their information.  Perhaps for them to then further address if deemed appropriate.   This Committee could act if it thought it to be appropriate within the context of H&S, as a conduit.

Mr Cummins said that another issue of concern to unions, is the fact that some buildings are old and have asbestos in them and they do not know how this asbestos is being handled.  Mr Austin said that when a building is transferred over, the records are also transferred and they would include the asbestos survey. Lewisham is not responsible for the health and safety of these buildings.

Mr Austin said that schools are our partners with Lewisham children in attendance and officers could ask through the schools forum about health and safety issue. Schools attend these meetings on a voluntary basis.

Councillor Kelleher said that she did not realise that building ownership transferred when a school became an academy. She has been a school governor and questioned whether all governors would have the skills to address health and safety issues. She is concerned that when a school is academised, responsibilities are given to those who are not necessarily ready for it.

Members agreed that some academies are not addressing health and safety issues within their schools and at times children have not been protected. Whilst the terms of reference of this committee are very narrow, it was agreed that the incidents that had been brought to the attention of members are of concern. This Committee can act as a conduit to ensure that the relevant officers are identified and advised accordingly. Ms Der Man suggested that she could meet with Mr Cummins to consider the best way forward.

RESOLVED that

(i)    the report be noted; and

(ii)   a meeting be held between Ms Der Man and Mr Cummins to discuss how best to address members’ concerns regarding incidents that are taking place in some academised schools and to identify relevant officers.

Leisure and Community Libraries Provision

On 5 November 2018, this Committee requested a short report and discussion on information on how Lewisham’s contractors / service providers in facilities are performing; Leisure Centres and Community Libraries in particular. Antonio Rizzo, Head of Library and Information Service, made a presentation on the briefing paper which is attached to these minutes.

The Chair asked who has responsibility for maintaining Pepys Library. The building is owned by Hyde Housing and Eco computers have a lease on this building at the present time. AR said that the lease is being re-negotiated, but he was not sure of the current position of these negotiations. The Chair said that there is a large hole in the ceiling which is a danger to those entering the building. Councillor Kelleher said that Lewisham do not own the building so are not responsible for repairs. She said that Lewisham’s community team are working with Hyde Housing and the current occupiers to find a resolution and it is hoped that Hyde will take on the bulk of the financial responsibility.

Councillor Best said that with regard to Pepys Library, Lewisham provide a service. Eco computers have the responsibility for running the building and they will be negotiating with Hyde housing on who has responsibility for the ceiling. This Committee’s interest is to make sure that the library functions correctly and will raise concerns regarding the condition of the ceiling.

Mr Cummins asked for a short report for the next meeting of this committee on the number of visits made by council workers in the exercise of monitoring and give details of any issues found in leaseholder libraries and the recommendations made. He said that he is not confident that these visits are made. Mr Rizzo said that he visits the library at least once a month. The responsibility that the library service has, is to monitor the contract in relation to the library service provision and along with colleagues, they visit the libraries more than once a month. Issues found are reported to those with responsibility for maintaining the libraries. He said that he would contact Hyde housing with regard to the ceiling in Pepys Library.

Mr Cummins said that he is a regular user of New Cross Learning Library and they are clear that there has not been any health and safety monitoring at this library. Mr Rizzo said that he speaks to staff regularly and has detailed knowledge of the work that has been undertaken in the library. The responsibility is theirs and they agreed a programme of works when they took the building on. One of the conditions when resources were allocated, was that they would perform a number of works to upkeep the building and Lewisham officers would monitor that. This has been done and they have received the funds for this. 

Councillor Best said that the Council spent a long time negotiating the community offer for these buildings. The Council own them but there are long leases and she said that they could be made available to Mr Cummins. She outlined the documents contained within these leases.

Mr Cummins said that people approach him to make him aware about health and safety issues. He gave examples of pat testing and asked who arranges this. He also asked who is responsible for ensuring that electrical equipment brought on to Lewisham premises by community groups has been tested. There is no rigour and it is putting people’s lives at risk. Councillor Best asked Mr Cummins for details of any issues because if it involves the buildings owned by Lewisham it would be a matter for this Committee to consider.

Councillor Best said that it would be useful for members of this Committee to have a copy of the schedules which sets out the responsibility of each library and if Mr Cummins has any specific issues, it will be clear who is responsible and refer it to the correct bodies.

The Chair asked for a list of all properties for which Lewisham is responsible. Mr Austin said that it is on the Lewisham Web site and the link would be sent to all members.

RESOLVED that

(i) a short report be submitted to  the next meeting of this committee on the number of visits made by council workers in the exercise of monitoring health and safety in libraries;

(ii) a copy of the schedules which sets out the responsibilities of each library be circulated to members of the Committee; and

(iii) members of the committee be sent the new link on Lewisham web site which outlines the buildings for which this Council has responsibility.

Ms Der Man

A.R

A.R

A.R

A.R

Clerk